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  #21  
Old 02-25-2007, 03:32 PM
Sykoi Sykoi is offline
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Question Re: Concerned

Quote:
Originally Posted by ojwk View Post
So why did you change it back? It's one thing to make an unconsidered decision but another to not stick by it.

Actually if you would pay attention rather than needlessly attacking me, you'd realize I didn't move it back to the original forum... I moved it from Tatsumaki to Et Cetara to General
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  #22  
Old 02-26-2007, 12:22 AM
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Default Re: Concerned

Hi Everybody,

One thing I will always support, is criticism. I think that it helps to make sure that things are working well, and helps to push for change. And I think that is important in any community.

That being said, I am suprised this thread exists at all. This is a community project. I didnt come into this to attack anyone because I dont think that is constructive, but that is my point. I put my money into this, just like a lot of the rest of us here. And I did it because I WANT to see this succeed. I have never understood the point of attacking things without direction for something better. Of course things could be better, but thats why Sykoi asks for help. What more could you really ask for from someone, than to have a team of developers have an open community project that if you participate can actively have an affect on.

I dont like the idea of what these threads represent, as I said.. I support criticism, I think its a very important part of the creative process. But complaining about problems or focusing on aspects that don't have an end I think is very destructive. this team is always here. commenting on statements, being involved in the community, keeping the community informed of what is going on. All you have to do is read whats going on.

To that end:

If you think the website design sucks, suggest something better.
If you think the design team isn't doing their job as well as they could be, step up and offer your assistance.

What I like about this project, is if know how to do C++ or, scripting, or network design, or was learned in ancient Japanese lore, I could assist more and more.

I paid my 50 dollars for pre-order. I am going to donate more, because I want this to work. If it doesnt, and it fails. thats the risk I take. But I have more than faith, I have the proof in what pre-ordering provides.

keep up the good work guys.

thats my rant.
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  #23  
Old 02-26-2007, 01:00 AM
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Default Re: Concerned

It is funny how people who have risked nothing complain about something they have had no help in creating.

Yes there is a risk to investing in a game that is not made. But the greatest rewards come from taking risks. If you didn't think this game was a good idea then you would not post here. A good product comes from a good idea and the means to make it reality. Many people are working very hard to make this game happen. They all want this to work and are trying very hard to make it happen. This game will happen sooner if the people doing all the work can keep doing it and not answering pointless posts like these. If you want this to happen then get involved, yes donate money, help in some way!
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  #24  
Old 02-26-2007, 01:17 AM
Arakawa Nobuaki Arakawa Nobuaki is offline
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Default Re: Concerned

Sneak, it's easier to just attack things without bringing in ideas. Bringing ideas, being constructive, takes effort. And effort is the new deadly sin.
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  #25  
Old 02-26-2007, 01:26 AM
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Default Re: Concerned

I just don't see how people throwing their mental feces around here helps anything. If people don't like the wait, there is an x on the top right they can click on. Keep up the good work EoE!
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  #26  
Old 02-26-2007, 08:30 AM
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Default Re: Concerned

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masamune View Post
Uzshka, I need to ask, but why are you so concerned about the lack of progress? What do you exactly find so disturbing and unsettling about it, because as far as I can tell you haven't pre-ordered, so, you haven't invested into the actual development process. How can you then turn around and criticize? You're not concerned about your own money, which I would understand, so I'm just trying to find your logic behind this whole post. (Sorry if I sound aggressive, I'm not trying to be )

You also have to realize when you write posts like this you ARE, whether you realize it or not, hurting the community by putting doubt in everyone's mind. Why should people then help and pre-order when one of the long time forum members is doubting what is being accomplished? Instead, it would have been better to address this to Sykoi in a PM and if he didn't help you or settle your concerns, you then publicly state what it is you're troubled about.

No, I am not concerned for my own money. However, I am concerned for the future of Tatsumaki, as it is a project I would sincerely like to see succeed. I would hardly commit myself to something like this otherwise. Part of the purpose was indeed to find explanations. I have followed the progress of Tatsumaki for quite some time, all the while growing more suspicious of integrity of the project. The idea of it being a scam did cross my mind, although that was not something I intended to publicly state, especially as I did not consider it likely either. The reason I chose the forums was partly because I felt that there might be others who think the same way, but who are either not motivated enough for the commitment it would involve, or are just plain scared of being bashed to oblivion by die hard fans (Something I hope this wont degenerate into.) Perhaps the “Tatsumaki is a scam” troll was simply unimpressed for the same reasons as I, but did not have the energy to display his/her concerns in a less childish and more thoughtful manner. It seems I have been proven wrong to some extent on this idea. I also wished for a larger range of feedback from the community, people who might agree or disagree with all or some of my points

My intention was in fact to cause some doubt, however evil that may sound when said like that. I was personally very wary of pre-ordering for the reasons mentioned and it felt that people were simply throwing away money into an unpromising project. Yes, it is none of my business what people do with their money, but I did wish to introduce some sceptism. My aim however was not to directly disrupt the project. I think it is more important that the community be convinced that it is a good idea to pre order, rather than convincing the pre order people that their choice was a good one. I would not personally base such a decision so heavily on faith.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masamune View Post
You should read the developer journals at eyesoute.com, that's what they're there for.
Forgive me for my ignorance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senshi View Post
People "who have already donated large amounts of money" already have the evidence they need to know if they should help out or not.
Very true, yet it seems unfair that they are the ones who must donate further, instead of other community members who are as yet unconvinced that it is a worthy donation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senshi View Post
The money from pre-ordering goes toward keeping EOE alive, people who help like that, and have that much faith in the game, should receive at least a bit more than people who just sit there and help in no apparent way.
Many of the people who just sit there do so because they are, as I said unconvinced. And as you said, the pre order people already have the evidence to know they need to help out. Also I would think the other benefits classify as “a bit more.” No sarcasm intended.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senshi View Post
The decision of someone to pre-order is based on how much faith the person has in EOE and in Tatsumaki.
Inevitably to some extent yes, but I think that too much of it is based on faith, too much for my comfort anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Senshi View Post
EOE isn't one of those big companies that has all the funding in the world. Its a group of people who got together, and seriously decided to put plenty of hard work and effort into a game. All of that money goes to paying for a server for the site, game and everything else.
I am aware of those facts, yet my original point is still as valid. Professional or not, sound financial planning is essential.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senshi View Post
In the past two and a half years that I have been a member of this community, Sykoi has begged for money only twice.
Yet unless my memory has failed me there have been more posts with pleas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the sneak View Post
Hi Everybody,

One thing I will always support, is criticism. I think that it helps to make sure that things are working well, and helps to push for change. And I think that is important in any community.

That being said, I am suprised this thread exists at all. This is a community project. I didnt come into this to attack anyone because I dont think that is constructive, but that is my point. I put my money into this, just like a lot of the rest of us here. And I did it because I WANT to see this succeed. I have never understood the point of attacking things without direction for something better. Of course things could be better, but thats why Sykoi asks for help. What more could you really ask for from someone, than to have a team of developers have an open community project that if you participate can actively have an affect on.

I dont like the idea of what these threads represent, as I said.. I support criticism, I think its a very important part of the creative process. But complaining about problems or focusing on aspects that don't have an end I think is very destructive. this team is always here. commenting on statements, being involved in the community, keeping the community informed of what is going on. All you have to do is read whats going on.

To that end:

If you think the website design sucks, suggest something better.
If you think the design team isn't doing their job as well as they could be, step up and offer your assistance.

What I like about this project, is if know how to do C++ or, scripting, or network design, or was learned in ancient Japanese lore, I could assist more and more.

I paid my 50 dollars for pre-order. I am going to donate more, because I want this to work. If it doesnt, and it fails. thats the risk I take. But I have more than faith, I have the proof in what pre-ordering provides.

keep up the good work guys.

thats my rant.
The question of whether one has the right to criticise when one couldn’t do better is one which deserves a debate of its own. Personally I think I do think I have the right to criticize. Just as if I went to a restaurant, and the food was rubbish, I would go and complain. I can’t tell them how to do it any better, but I still have the right to express my opinion. Then the chef can go “Oh… really? The carrots with ketchup weren’t good? Well I better do something about it.” Thus he was alerted of the problem and could then take steps to improve the situation. And please note I did not mean that as a direct comparison to Tatsumaki.

As you said, you put money into this because you WANT it to succeed. I also want it to succeed. There are many things I want, but wanting is not always enough justification to part with my money. This comes back to the question of faith which I don’t want to go over again =P

Also, I would gladly help with Tatsumaki, but my skills are hardly good enough to be of any use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arakawa Nobuaki View Post
Sneak, it's easier to just attack things without bringing in ideas. Bringing ideas, being constructive, takes effort. And effort is the new deadly sin.
It’s also quite easy to be a smartass. You are attacking my post without bringing in ideas or being constructive. I hope you also realise that it takes a lot of commitment and effort to make a post like this, and to respond to all the differing opinions. I have committed much time, effort and presumably my reputation to do this, It was not a decision taken lightly

I hope that you and Delirium do not cause reason for this to be classified as a flame war or a useless conversation.
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  #27  
Old 02-26-2007, 09:30 AM
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Default Re: Concerned

Even though I feel like I can't contribute, I'll make an attempt.

Uzshka, from my personal opinion, I can understand your reasoning behind your statements. I feel you are trying to open up the community for criticism and, in a way, help by addressing some issues that have been bothering you for some time. I'll admit, I left the community due to inactivity from the boards and a lack of updates and I haven't contributed due to complete apathy. But I have faith in T:Law. (I have faith in a lot of things though )

And I believe that this conversation does have merit. If anything, it will only help the community become stronger by addressing the concerns of not only the paying community but the general populous as well. And I'll admit i was not happy to see this thread poking doubt into a game that I want to see succeed, but I can see the value in it now. For example, It's generally known the Syoki and the rest of the team stay pretty busy, but at times I couldn't figure out why they wouldn't feed us (unpaid community) bits of info. And I began to believe that maybe they had taken a break or hit a rut and slowed production. But I couldn't grasp the idea that this project is quite ambitious and while understaffed and underfunded at times, they still work toward the finished product.

So Uzshka, I do understand your point, it was offensive to see it at first, and you raised doubt when you wanted answers to your concerns. But I understand your reasoning and this thread will only strengthen T:Law.
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  #28  
Old 02-26-2007, 09:40 AM
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Default Re: Concerned

uzshka,

I can respect why you would throw yourselves to the wolves. The reason I jumped into this, is in an attempt to keep things moving forward. I understand your frustration. But I cant think of anyone who could be any more frustrated than the people working to put this project together. My brother does web design work for the company we work for, and he sits days in front of his computer non stop trying to work out glitches, overcoming issues he has never faced before. I actually asked him about applying for a position helping on the network side of T-Law, he looked over the application and said "I would have no idea where to begin on some of that stuff." And he runs back end of our whole company.

My point, I didnt come here to attack you for this, or so and so for that. but hope to change the direction that this thread is going. Its right to question, but I think that it should be directed properly. If you have genuine concerns about what is going on, ask Sykoi in a PM.
But, as you said before. a lot of your concerns were addressed. So lets move forward.
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  #29  
Old 02-26-2007, 09:41 AM
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Default Re: Concerned

Yes, I too have much faith in Tatsumaki, when I talked about faith I did not mean I had none of it. If I did not have any faith in Tatsumaki I would not be here. Just thought I would make that clear

Also I agree with you on the fact that this will strengthen T:Law and the community, and I feel that the forums will be a better place once the fires of this thread have died down. Time will tell.
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  #30  
Old 02-26-2007, 02:34 PM
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Default Re: Concerned

I appreciate everyone's concern, and I'm glad uzshka brought this discussion up... However I will be closing this thread in a few days to let it sink to the bottom of the post list.
I'm not trying to hide anything, however - look back through the thread... Its three pages long, each post is around 500+ words, and its a pretty serious discussion. Anyone "stopping by" will take a glance and assume the worst.

If anyone feels this should stay open, I'm fine with that... But if no one minds, I'm going to close it.
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