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  #1  
Old 03-19-2007, 03:03 PM
Isamashii Isamashii is offline
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Lightbulb Falconry

While I was researching bird species on Wikipedia, I came across the subject of falconry. It mentioned that falconry has been going on in Japan at least since 355 AD. It came to be known as Takagari, and became a symbol of social status, due to how expensive it was to get the eggs and train the birds. The Wikipedia entry can be found here.

I could see this being implemented into the pet system.
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Old 03-19-2007, 04:56 PM
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Default Re: Falconry

While there is no evidence to suggest that the Japanese practiced falconry before the sixth century CE, it is clear that falconry is very important to the nobility of Japan in the Edo period as it was in Europe in the high middle ages. The animal would have to be accurate in its high cost and rarity to ensure that it remains accurate in it's place in society.
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  #3  
Old 03-19-2007, 06:16 PM
Akitora Akitora is offline
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Default Re: Falconry

This is true. If one was to do it realistically, you'd have almost a self contained system.

A falcon would have to be reared from birth by a Falconer - a commoner (hunter type?) or prehaps low ranking Samurai (due to his service to a lord? Prehaps the bestowal of title can be left to IC).

A noble, or any who could afford the services of such a man, would have to daily visit the chick while it was being reared, slowly bonding with the bird and teaching it to take food only from his hand and the hand of no other. This is vital in a hunting bird to ensure that it doesn't take the prey and fly off to eat it itself. In a sense - falconry is animal domestication at its most primal. The bird must be taught to return to the glove, to wear the hood, to get used to the process of the hunt through being taken on them and watching other already trained birds hunt. So here we have a process which takes years - any noble who is into falconry does have to invest a lot of time and money into it.

(To such a noble,it also has no intrinsic value as a skill - the Japanese ate very little meat and most thought the practice disgusting, so it is of little use as food. The birds did not go after predators really, just rabbits and small mammals and birds. The art of falconry is the same as flower arranging and poetry - good for the spirit not for the pocket per se. It is a sign of breeding and culture, an expression of the Samurai and Bushido.)

Then comes the day of the first hunt. There is always the risk that on this first time free of the cage and gauntlet that it will simply fly off and never return - this probability as a game mechanic would be modified by the amount of time invested by the noble and the skill of the falconer in animal training (specialised in birds of prey). IF it does return, the noble finally has his usable pet. While the first hunt is a risk, the risk decreases over time for each hunt.

However sooner or later the bird will fly off and never return. When this happens is anyones guess, and it serves as a reminder, especially to those who follow Bushido, that like life, the time spent between the hunter and bird is all too fleeting and the ending of it can come without warning. In this sense, no doubt many nobles released thier birds of thier own free will before this happened - a reflection of the fact that a Samurai could and would chose the moment of thier passing, that death was not to be feared and that the spirit, like the bird, was wild in essence, and could never truely be tamed.

(From an out of game mechanic this "explanation" could go towards ensuring the relative rarity AND value of such birds.)

Breeding of birds thus becomes its own economic system - especially if live and surviving births are not always guaranteed, nor that one while get hatchilings that turn out to be suitable for training. The role of a falcon trainer gives a commoner a chance to rise in his station, attacting the patronage of a lord and serving him, prehaps one day being raised to samurai status due to his skill and value.

Falconers, like any medieval japanese trade, would be handed down on the most part as a skill within families. Thus a new character choosing this career would either have to learn the trade from a relative (giving a fair bit of skill at creation, at the sacrifice of other skill trees since its the only thing they have really ever done) OR apprentice themselves to a Falcon Master PC or NPC. The number of such positions would be limited (economic reality - monopolise your trade to ensure its value through scarcity) and highly sought after. An apprentice would have to really want to do this for a living at the expense of other skills and experience. Perfect for a crafter character type (in general MMORPG terms) specialising in Pets and for the nobles who have better things to do than to devote playing time to JUST raising Pets.

Pets too could have a hunting skill, making them unique amongst each other - some being more valuable than others. This creates a niche for underworld types to tap into a potential illicit market for chick trade to unscruplous noblers and the like.
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  #4  
Old 03-19-2007, 08:04 PM
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Default Re: Falconry

Well, I liked it. I liked it all. Indeed, the culture and status it would mean. But... It would be so much work to do such things for.... Absolutely... Nothing at all. If you know about status that well, I think you ought to know that these noblemen's "status" brought by something... Is pure arrogancy, after all, any real swordsman, who would devote himself to the sword, for his own reason, despite the formalities that he should have, he wouldn't really respect someone who says: "I say. I have a falcon. I am THE man." you would answer "Oh, you sure are! Now, excuse-me I have to go(you stupid *****)"... So, it would be pretty interesting to be a hunter, to take loooong time to train the animals, to dedicate yourself to it... But after all, it would be MUCH programming, and little use of it, and even worse... it would be pretty useles. If you had your whole life training a bird, then all of a sudden 20 bandits come and attack your house, you would do what? send the falcon to attack? If it does not run away, it would get killed in a matter of minutes, then you and your family(if you got one), then your house. And your name would be disgraced, since you couldn't give the bird to the nobleman who wanted it...

I may say nonsense or whatever, but I just think it all would be pretty philosophycal and all... I do like this sort of thing but hard work to little-to-no use or somewhat like that... To have pets, yeah that is cool, and train it to help you or something, but just that... Of course a falcon could be helpful, but wouldn't a wolf or dog be even more? since it would be pretty much of a help in a fight, maybe a snake, to assassinate and all... aA bear to guard your forest house... I just say... There's plenty of more useful things that are worthy more then such hard work to this animal... No offense after all.
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Old 03-19-2007, 08:31 PM
Isamashii Isamashii is offline
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Default Re: Falconry

As Akitora mentioned, the training of a falcon could have a great value to the player, increasing their fame among the nobles, even to the point of recieving audience with the Emperor. I believe that skilled falconers were similar to celebrities in modern terms. And I don't think it would take much more programming compared to the taming of other beasts, it would only have a few different variables compared to taming other animals. Loyalty would be harder to gain than say, a canine animal. But, the fame one would gain from being successful in having a trained bird of the hunt would be so much greater.

So in essence, characters more interested in diplomatic and aristocratic areas of the game would find this as one of the possible paths to fame and glory. There could be methods of other bonuses. A method of rodent control out in the rice fields, for example. This would be to your credit, gaining you even more respect among your peers. This could not be done effectively with any other tamed beast, except snakes, which I'd imagine would be just as hard to tame for this same purpose, and not just slither away after it has gotten it's fill of a rodent or two.

I really do believe this could be implemented without too much programming difficulty, and be given a great reward for those that choose to take the risks.
  #6  
Old 03-19-2007, 08:52 PM
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Default Re: Falconry

Edit: Isamashii, you're far more diplomatic than I OOC /endEdit

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeniuriSaito
Well, I liked it. I liked it all. Indeed, the culture and status it would mean.
Thankyou on my part ^.^

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeniuriSaito
But... It would be so much work to do such things for.... Absolutely... Nothing at all.
Like, say, devoting hours and hours and hours and money and more hours and money to playing an MMORPG that rewards you with nothing more than pixels on a screen? I see many similarities between such a sport and what we do here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeniuriSaito
If you know about status that well, I think you ought to know that these noblemen's "status" brought by something... Is pure arrogancy, after all, any real swordsman, who would devote himself to the sword, for his own reason, despite the formalities that he should have, he wouldn't really respect someone who says: "I say. I have a falcon. I am THE man." you would answer "Oh, you sure are! Now, excuse-me I have to go(you stupid *****)"...
I think you're trying to say that possessing a falcon gives you status, when rather the reverse is the case. By having the status, you have removed yourself from the mundane concerns of life, and are focused solely in preparataion in all things towards dying well for ones Lord and the Emperor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeniuriSaito
So, it would be pretty interesting to be a hunter, to take loooong time to train the animals, to dedicate yourself to it...
If you're into that sort of thing it certainly would be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeniuriSaito
But after all, it would be MUCH programming,
How so? Plenty of games have trainable pets, and such games can be looked at for ideas on implementation. I remember how popular the Creature Handlers in Star Wars Galaxies were and that system is similar to this one in many respects - Unique pets with trainable abilities/experience that grew with you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeniuriSaito
and little use of it, and even worse... it would be pretty useles.
Ah. That brings back so many pleasent memories of grinding for hours, questing in online dungeons to receive a statue or rug that was reknowned loot - but at the end of the day it was just furntiture and of no real use to me...

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeniuriSaito
If you had your whole life training a bird, then all of a sudden 20 bandits come and attack your house, you would do what? send the falcon to attack? If it does not run away, it would get killed in a matter of minutes, then you and your family(if you got one), then your house. And your name would be disgraced, since you couldn't give the bird to the nobleman who wanted it...
Well, if I was a skilled Falcon Trainer, no doubt I would live in the Castle of my Lord and be within his lands - the chances of attack would be slim no?
As a faithful Japanese retainer I would trust in my Lord and his Samurai to protect me as his faithful vassal. Also as a commoner (as you're describing there, someone without the means of defence) I am not beholden to the code of Bushido so there is no disgrace to my name. (Not withstanding that a pissed off bird of prey of any size is BLOODY hard to kill when its attacking your eyes. Not to mention the panic it would put into mere bandits, or horses if the bandits were a cut above the norm.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeniuriSaito
I may say nonsense or whatever, but I just think it all would be pretty philosophycal and all...
Yep. That's 16th century Japan for you...

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeniuriSaito
I do like this sort of thing but hard work to little-to-no use or somewhat like that... To have pets, yeah that is cool, and train it to help you or something, but just that... Of course a falcon could be helpful, but wouldn't a wolf or dog be even more? since it would be pretty much of a help in a fight, maybe a snake, to assassinate and all... aA bear to guard your forest house... I just say... There's plenty of more useful things that are worthy more then such hard work to this animal... No offense after all.
None taken. All are entitled to thier PoV's

I have searched high and low, both online and in my collection of books, and I have yet to find any historical evidence that the Japanese ever used wolves, snakes or bears as attack animals, "hitsnakes" or guardbears. Even dogs weren't used on the battlefield. Nope - falcons and horses top the list of creatures used in a martial sense in Japan. Everything else was used for labour or foodsources (milk etc), or hunted for thier pelts and medicinal reasons. But prehaps I am not being forward thinking enough. A hive of killer Giant Japanese Hornets at my command could be veeeeery useful...

/endSarcasm

No offense after all.
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  #7  
Old 03-20-2007, 08:45 PM
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Default Re: Falconry

Oh, okay, I know I was pretty nonsense...

Quote:
Like, say, devoting hours and hours and hours and money and more hours and money to playing an MMORPG that rewards you with nothing more than pixels on a screen? I see many similarities between such a sport and what we do here...
indeed...


About the bear and all things, I was just giving a strange example, since you could try to tame them, even though the succeful rate would be probably none-to-zero...

For some reason I wasn't thinking the falcon as the falcon itself, that is shameful, I am just running int trouble after trouble now I'm getting stupid, oh great, indeed the falcon would be a pretty good pet, though the time to train would be pretty long... But I still think you shouldn't start it from the beggining... That's somewhat obvious... And I was stupid enough to forget about honor and all and said such nonsense in most of it...

But one thing I know... like... That all about the falcon would be hard working prog. and all... But yep it'd be prettier to have it online, although I don't think it's importance is really high, I think it'd be great...

I'm sorry for the last post, most of it was crap... hell ...I'm ashamed about that...
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Old 03-20-2007, 11:50 PM
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Default Re: Falconry

Bah - don't sweat it. I go off half cocked plenty and say stuff I regret later on the forums And I'm the one who should be shamed for replying as I did.

None the less, if people don't pick holes in others arguments and ideas, then nothing gets done and idea stagnant So Reputation click to you for taking the bull by the horns

Those replying so far seem to think Isamashii's idea is a good one. So lets pseudo-code it for the programmers so to speak - figure out how hard it actually WOULD be to code (and no doubt, yes, it won't be easy). Where do you see the difficulties with it?

Oh - I'm tossing asap post in my Blog or in History/Culture detailing something about Falcon Trainers etc - it's 18th C but certainly would have some application...
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  #9  
Old 03-24-2007, 05:02 PM
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Default Re: Falconry

Thank you

Indeed his idea is good.

Well I don't know much about all the code and stuff... But by all the 0,00000000000000000000000000000000000001% knowledge I have and the by the logic it seems to have many difficulties to make them obey to you, or maybe not, bbut always follow that... and have all the realism with it... I don't know how they would be proggramed and all. I think they should have simple commands, after all you cant talk to it, nor tell it to search around 5km and tell you everything that it saw. of course it could do something like "see traps" for you and everything. like when you get closer the traps and all appear glowing or something... And it could be used to attack. Although that should be dangerous enough to both... I don't know... I can't think about everything...
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