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  #11  
Old 08-24-2005, 07:34 AM
OmegaLord OmegaLord is offline
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Default Re: Ninja origin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trin
Ieyasu wasn't just some Daimyo. He was the emperor.
He was the first Tokugawa Shogun, lets not make any hisotrical incidents.
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  #12  
Old 08-24-2005, 09:38 AM
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Default Re: Ninja origin.

Yes he was the Shogun in the beginning of the 17th century, and brought peace as well as ruled for 200 years. He was a driven and fair leader, and lead the last family ever to be Shogun. But yeah, he did use the Togakure ninja in his regime.
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  #13  
Old 08-25-2005, 03:38 AM
ppharoah ppharoah is offline
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Default Re: Ninja origin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trin
Ieyasu wasn't just some Daimyo. He was the emperor.
an Emperor?

http://www.sizes.com/time/CHRNJapan_emper.htm

He did become Shogun though, in 1603 the emperor granted Ieyasu the title of shôgun, an honor helped along by his 'Minamoto' genealogy.

The Emperor was believed to be a divine being in Japanese culture until this century, although Daimyo and the Shogun were held in high regard they were never regarded with this distinction.
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  #14  
Old 08-25-2005, 09:24 AM
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Default Re: Ninja origin.

But during the feudal era of Japan, the Emperor had no real power, and it was the Shogun and his Daimyo that actually controlled the Country, the Meiji Emperor was just a figurehead, hense the Meiji Restoration, where the Shogunate was shut down and power was restored to the Emperor.
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  #15  
Old 09-18-2005, 05:39 PM
BigNinjaPimp BigNinjaPimp is offline
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Default Re: Ninja origin.

the ninja were just samurai who used comando tatics, like the navy seals. and they did have an honor code. some how stereo types have led people to belive that ninja's were farmers or whatever who had no honor who were hated by samurai. but all they were were samurai who were taught comado like tatics, which were called ninjitsu.

ninjutsu is one part of the curriculum (spl?) of Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu. TSKSR includes: kenjutsu (odachi, kodachi, ryoto); iaijutsu (odachi); bojutsu (rokushaku bo); naginatajutsu (onaginata); sojutsu (su yari); jujutsu; shurikenjutsu; ninjutsu; chikujojutsu; gunbaiho; and in-yo kigaku.

The ninjutsu your thinking of is the Hollywood version, or McDojo version.

Last edited by BigNinjaPimp; 09-18-2005 at 06:56 PM.
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  #16  
Old 09-18-2005, 06:58 PM
nobody4422 nobody4422 is offline
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Default Re: Ninja origin.

hmmm whered you get that information?

Its the first time Ive ever heard anything like that really. Ive heard one of the ninja origin theories is that they were that they formed from "disgraced" samurai who fled into the mountains after being defeated.

But that the ninja actually weer samurai is a new one to me. So if you could show a reference or something that would be helpful.

But simply juding from the fighting style and weaponry used (for example the weapons were much simpler and in particular the swords were not crafted like the katana but were more just sharpened slabs of metal.)

Im not saying that its wrong, Im just curious about it and would like to seemore information on it.
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  #17  
Old 09-18-2005, 07:03 PM
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Default Re: Ninja origin.

http://www.geocities.com/klancesegall/6.htm


made by a japanese historian on a japanese history forum.
its probably the most accurate record on the ninja iv seen.
I used to think all the myths were fact untill i was lectured by this guy.

http://www.geocities.com/klancesegall/home.htm
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  #18  
Old 09-18-2005, 07:43 PM
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Default Re: Ninja origin.

Interesting account and I dont believe that it isnt true just a different take on it.

The version of ninja history which I tend to go by, and is often the more accepted is the version presented by the Bujinkan and soke Dr. Massaki Hatsumi. Informarion about the Bujinkan organization and Masski Hatsumi can be found on the site www.winjutsu.com.

This version can be found here http://www.winjutsu.com/ninjakids/nk_history.html

This isnt to say that its the true history or not, no one can really no for sure. But this seems to be a rather widely accepted version of it.


Edit: As far as the "Ninja-to" goes ive heard two different accounts of it. One is that it a short straight balde, forged not nearly as well as a samurais weapon making it generallty duller and and less durable. The second is that the weapon was forged very similarly to those of the samurai it that it was curved. But it was still shorter than those used by the samurai so as to allow for faster draws and better indoor and very close range fighting.

The second one is the one supported by the Bujinkan.
http://www.winjutsu.com/ninjakids/nk_weapons.html

Youll have to forgive the watered down nature of the information presented as it is more geared toward kids who have recently or will soon start training. This doesnt make it any less accurate though, and is supported in the books "Ninja: History and Traditon" by Dr. Massaki Hatsumi and "Ninja and Their Secret Fighting Art" by Jack Hoban.
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  #19  
Old 09-18-2005, 08:11 PM
BigNinjaPimp BigNinjaPimp is offline
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Default Re: Ninja origin.

bujikan is a chain of schools that teach ninjitsu. hatsumi is the person who teaches the closest to the real ninjitsu, but since he didnt live in the time period. his knowledge on the origin may be a little off. just no one really knows right now the complete history of the ninjas.

"Daimyo Takeda Shingen is a good example. He distrusted mercenaries and relied on his own samurai for covert intelligence gathering. He had three units of samurai who were trained in 'ninja' tactics.
"When his army took to the field these men were mounted samurai who rode ahead of the army. They would scout ahead to prevent ambushes and reconnaissance to locate the enemy army, keep track of its movement, count their numbers, send reports back of their findings.
When their own army is encamped, they perform sentry duty. They would be tasked to locate and intercept their enemy counterparts. They would gather intelligence by taking prisoners enemy scouts, sentries and messengers.
"When battle began, they fought as mounted samurai. Due to their advanced knowledge of the enemy composition, they could infiltrate, identify and eliminate enemy commanders, to disrupt and cause chaos in the enemy ranks. The simple act of removing the sashimono banner from behind their armour could enable them to 'mingle' with the enemy. Even before battle began, some could already be among the enemy ranks acting as spies, provocateurs, and saboteurs.
"These were the 'real' ninja of many of the samurai armies of the Sengoku period, samurai trained in covert operations.
"In certain situations, entire samurai armies operated like ninja in commando-style night attacks, ambushes and guerilla warfare. Ninja tactics were not alien to the rest of the rank and file samurai.
"In the event of a defeat and retreat, these men were also tasked as rear guard. To delay and disrupt enemy pursuit. The Shimazu left behind samurai as 'booby-traps'. They lay with the dead and acted as snipers.
"Because of their special training in counter intelligence, they were also very effective as personal bodyguards for daimyo. Who better to catch a ninja, but a samurai trained as one?
"During siege operations, special units of trained samurai would infiltrate the enemy castle disguised as enemy samurai. They would gather intelligence and caused chaos within through assassination and arson. They would aid the attacking army by eliminating sentries and opening the gates.
"One Iga ninja, Hattori Hanzo (the real one) was also a general in Tokugawa Ieyasu's army and commanded samurai in battle."
- Evalerio, Japanese Samurai History Forum


"The Yagyuu family--owner's of Ueno Castle in Iga--were well known practitioners of ninjutsu. Yet again, however, they were samurai--even serving as the kenjutsu instructors to the Tokugawa shogunate.
"What you're losing sight of is that "ninja" or "shinobi" is a role--it's a specific set of covert jobs. "Samurai" is a status--a class. You were samurai if you were born samurai, whether you commanded a squad of ashigaru, fought in the cavalry, performed espionage, or were in charge of the kitchens or road construction.
"Ninja" activities could range from the popular notion of assasination by climbing over the castle wall, sneaking past guards, killing a rival lord, and disappearing into the night to traveling around spreading false rumors, to reporting information overheard. It's a Venn diagram--the samurai circle is big, and only a small portion of it intersects the "ninja" circle. However, the "ninja" circle is small, and most, but not all, lies within the "samurai" circle. I'd draw this for you, but the software here doesn't allow it. True, the maid who overhears a conversation she shouldn't and passes it to the enemy for a small fee may not be samurai, but that's definitely within the realm of "ninja" activity--hence, she's part of the small group inside the ninja circle, but outside the samurai one.
"I can hear you saying "but that's not what ninjutsu is"--do some research into the words. 忍 (nin, or shinobi) means stealthy, surreptitious, etc. This can mean sneaking around in the shadows (忍ばせる shinobaseru, to conceal or hide, or 忍び込む, shinobikomu, to creep) or just hiding something from view (忍び笑い, shinobiwarai, laughing to one's self). 者 (sha/ja or mono) simply means person. A "shinobi no mono" was a spy or covert operative during the sengoku period. On the tactical side they were called "kusa" (grass)."
- Itdomer98, Japanese Samurai History Forum


some things about ninjas from the history forum

ninja/shinobi = samurai, or rather 'covert' samurai

http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/mai...ory%2Fstart%2F

also hatsumi has been known to bend the ninja story to apeal to the masses, and also to make them seem less violent than they actually were. cause he also wants to preserve the art, and leaving out some of the nasty ninja history would attract more people to the dojo.
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  #20  
Old 09-18-2005, 08:37 PM
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Default Re: Ninja origin.

With so many styles that were all quite similar, and so much cross training and borrowing of techniques.

It cannot be said that all Ninja were this All Samurai were that,
what is a Ninja ? what is a Samurai?

I truely believe that back then you were known by your school, ur Ryu, and ur Skill. Ninja walked the streets as samurai, they were one and the same

It all depended on what was their Job to the Daimyo.

Hatsumi's sensei's version of the history of the Ninja I believe is but one account of many different accounts. Things like why/if the swords were straight or curved etc are insignifigant, because maybe This Ninja used a broken or cut down Katana, maybe another used a specially made Ninja-To.

For the purpose of a video game its easiest to lump everything into 2 catagories, Ninja and Samurai but in reality I think its a lot more complicated.

Again im going to refer to the Book musashi which I think illustrates it best.
There was a character in the book that made a very brief appearance, the author never stated he was a Ninja, and described him as a Man dressed as a Samurai who tried to help Otsu when she was in danger, But the Author kept hinting that there was something mysterious about this persons presence. Later The Author refered to this character as a well known practitioner of a Ryu rumoured to be a Ninjutsu Ryu.

I think this was a very subtle way to inroduce a Ninja character in the book, and you never really knew for sure if he was or not.

I always end up confusing myself when attempting to talk on this topic, but I think what I am trying to say is that I believe Ninja or samurai are just stereo types for people In different jobs from different Ryu's

Just read BigNinjaPimp's last post and I have to say I think he better described the thoughts in my mind than I could

I used to be Bujinkan so I am not anti Hatsumi at all, But yeah I agree with BigNinjaPimp totally
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