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Old 09-18-2007, 02:15 AM
Arakawa Nobuaki Arakawa Nobuaki is offline
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Default Re: Ninja origin.

Well Letum. "N" did all that because, well, they were the pros and pretty much the only unit ready for it (compare it with early military aviation, the first guys there flew anything and everything from recon to "bombing" runs). The Old Badger (aka Ieyasu) had his specialists for anything, ranging from siege warfare to cavalry, muskets, and, of course, clandestine operations. It's just like that today. Every military has those.

Of course today's military has a more distinct separation. But that's only logic, there's hundreds of years of evolution in military procedures.

Not every "N" had to do with assassinations. In fact, assassinations weren't their main job anyway. Tokugawa Ieyasu, for example, used them for recon, infiltration and sabotage (Why do you think did Ieyasu win Sekigahara? Why did the leaders of thousands of soldiers of the Western Army either not move or attack their allies? Because the Old Badger had his contacts with them, bribed them, etc, and how do you get in contact with an enemy daimyo? Easy... you send a specialist for such an operation, and that brings in Ieyasu' Iga and Koga men). Assassinations did happen, but those weren't the primary part of the job description. It's a somewhat hyped thing that mainly comes from crappy Western movies and morons who write books about something they obviously lack any understanding of (like Stephen Hayes). Most of the recorded exploits (there aren't many, actually, it's just like with modern special forces, you keep the stuff secret from the public) show us recon behind enemy lines, infiltration of castles, sabotage of castle defenses, etc. Missions vital for a successful military campaign. Assassinating an enemy daimyo didn't mean that there wouldn't be a war anyway (take Oda Nobunaga, murdered by his own general, did the Sengoku Jidai end? Nope, certainly not. One of the Uesugi was, possibly, assassinated by an "N", did the wars end? No. Did the Uesugi just disappear? Nope. And the problem with this account is: there are conflicting sources. We can assume that an "N" actually killed him. But we can also assume that he died of a natural cause.) And then you had to get close to that daimyo and that was certainly not easy. Kidnapping, insignificant. No "N" could possibly dream of kidnapping someone of power (they might do so in anime and manga, but those are certainly not good sources for actual research). These people were just too well protected.

SAS has been doing assassinations as well. They got fire from the left wing for executing several islamic terrorists when they freed an embassy some time in the 80s.

Additionally, I'd say that assassinations, espionage, etc, aren't the "dark side" (that's why samurai looked down on "N", right?) That's another myth coined by wannabe experts such as Hayes. Espionage, assassinations, sabotage, you name it, are part of any successful military campaign at any time in the history of warfare across the globe. And well, we're talking about warfare here. The only "dark side" would be attacking civilians. But military attacks on military targets during a military campaign, no matter how this assault is done, are pretty much what you can expect during a war.

And "N" weren't really on the market either, since they were, well, samurai (after all, nobody else in feudal Japan had the right combat training and education, or... the time to get such training; peasants were too busy with working and paying taxes). And as such they served a liege lord. Most famous examples are the Hattori and Yagyu families who served the Old Badger. The Iga and Koga clans didn't sell their knowledge to enemies of the Tokugawa. Not only because they were in employment with the Shogun, no, they also owed Ieyasu quite a lot. He had protected many of them in the past. Additionally, the Hattori and Yagyu were both hatamoto to the Tokugawa. And you don't become hatamoto by not being absolutely trustworthy.

Any story of super assassins that can be hired in Iga... forget it. Just myths. Stories that sell well as an action packed anime or manga. There's nothing to back those up.

BTW, by naming the GSG9 I was referring to the fact that they do blend into the Bundesgrenzschutz easily. You can talk to a BGS officer in Germany and you wouldn't know whether he's GSG9 or just regular BGS. Same applies for SAS members. It's save to assume that, for example, Ieyasu's "N"s were like that in Edo castle. They blend in, can't be separated from the rest of the crowd. In Edo castle, how would anyone know whether the low ranking samurai who had just brought in a message from a Tokugawa alley as courier was not an "N"? Easy answer, no one, except those responsible for the "N" operations, would know, and those guys wouldn't tell anyone except... the Tokugawa shogun.

And, uh... I don't hold wikipedia in a high regard for actual research, since anyone can change things there (have you ever read the article they had about kunoichi? not one single fact in it, just myths and BS from extremely doubtful sources (as in... people who sell "modern" nin-jutsu, someone who tries to sell some "super mythical ninja technique" is hardly a decent source for actual historic facts.) As a matter of fact, wikipedia is not accepted at my university as a source for papers one has to write.
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Old 09-18-2007, 09:07 AM
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Letum Letum is offline
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Default Re: Ninja origin.

when i say dark side (in the context i used it before) then its normally understood as things that arent meant to see sunlight, morally/ethically wrong or actions not so approved by public.

i said spetsnaz because they fit the "ninja slot" the most, while the others said might not have any connection to them except for fierce training.

spetsnaz use "normal military clothes", even civilian clothes and successfully fool everyone of their spetsnazness, how ninja is that?
dude.. Its normal to use "disguise" amongst special forces.

i didnt say every ninja had to do with assassinations
i didnt say anythin about super ninjas
i didnt say anything about other, this days, special troops not assassinating

u r writing about completely irrelevant things..

(there r other sources which confirm spetsnaz doing shady things)
"I know you think you understand what you thought I said but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant"- Alan Greenspan
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