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  #1  
Old 09-25-2008, 10:29 AM
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Default Legend debunking

Moving hijack from other thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gheari
Did Minamoto Tametomo really sink boats with arrows? Probably not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Svage
Actually I belive the event in question was actually a single time where a well placed arrow right at the waterline of a canoe did puncture deep enough to sink it. But if I remember my historical research correctly, this was not more than a single instance or maybe two, and at the very end of what I was reading. not impossible, but quite difficult to do.
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Originally Posted by Gheari
The story says a Taira Ship, not a canoe. A canoe could be sunken by an arrow, however since this was Japan in 1170 it was probably not a canoe. He was in exile on Izu Oshima, so a canoe most likely could not have gotten to the island (especially seeing as how Japan didn't have canoes in 1170). Even if a ship was pierced below the waterline by an arrow (and the crew were not able to repair the ship), if it were in sight of land it would not sink. Also, once the arrow hit the water it would have at the least lost a lot of its speed (for instance
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Originally Posted by Svage
The one I read said boat, and also figure boats used by japan at that time were not very large. also figure the bows used at the time were much heavier than now. a typical warbow in england was heavier than 150 pounds pull, on the low end. I know I shoot longbows and I would barely be able to pull a 150 pound shortbow. I assume japan also had more powerfull bows then than now. if a wooden arrow from a 95 pound draw mongolian horsebow (my friend shoots this on occasion) can burry itself in tightly packed cardboard up to the fletching at 50 yards, I have no doubt a 200 pound draw warbow from japan could pierce 2 inches of wood at 100 yards. I admit the actual sinking of the ship does sound improbable, but it is possible.
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Old 09-25-2008, 03:39 PM
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Default Re: Legend debunking

First I have to question your use of the word boat again. What makes you think that Japan didn't have the junk, which had been in use in China for more than 1,000 years? In regard to the Mongolian bow. The Mongolian horsebow was a recurve bow and thus stored more power innately than other types of bows. Also an English longbow could go up to 900N (1 pound of force equaling 4.455[repeating]N) (this is the upper end of the spectrum and was probably the largest, higher quality bows). Also, I do not think that the yumi had reached its pinnacle until about the 14th century. A yumi is a straight bow, it is not recurved. It stores power normally and is the same height as an English longbow.
The only big differences between yumi and the English longbow are the grip and the yumi's lamination.
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Old 09-25-2008, 04:54 PM
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Default Re: Legend debunking

As I said I was speaking of a warbow, not a long bow. the warbow I am refering to was used by the non-archery specific forces. kind of a "lemme shoot you till you are close enough to stab." kind of use. Less power available. and a 90lb recurve still won't give the punch of a 150+lb short bow. I do know a recurve has more punch, I shoot a long bow and my wife shoots a recurve, and she can get about an extra 10 yards on me in a clout shoot (100-200 yard shoot at a 10 foot radius ground target, for those who don't know), even though she draws at about 32lbs and I draw mine at about 43lbs.

as for the "junk", a people who were pretty much xenophobic I would assume would not need ships much larger than being able to carry 40-50 people in a wartime situation, and that is being cramped for a short distance trip. I may have a skewed opinion from my time in the NAVY, but that implies a boat to me, while a ship would be a bit larger, designed for much longer trips. (shiping something by sea requires a ship, travelling to an Island off the coast or going partway up a river usually takes something smaller.)
And once again, I am stating opinion, so no need to try and argue, as I said earlier, from an engineering standpoint the feat is quite possible, but not very probable. Unless we speak to someone who was actually there, we will never know for certain.
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Last edited by Svage; 09-25-2008 at 04:55 PM. Reason: detailing
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Old 09-25-2008, 07:16 PM
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Default Re: Legend debunking

A warbow is a type of longbow. A longbow is generally a bow that is one meter or longer, the other end of the spectrum being shortbows. There were multiple styles and sizes of longbows used in England, but most of them had a draw weight of more than 100 pounds, averaging about 130 pounds. I would assume that the lighter ones were used as beginner bows. Also the junk was seaworthy and large enough to carry and house men in the Mongolian invasions of many Asian islands.
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Old 09-26-2008, 08:35 AM
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Default Re: Legend debunking

OK.. do you have to beat the dead horse any more? The basic concept of what we were talking about is if it was possible to puncture the hull of a ship/boat with a heavy bow therefore causing it to take on water. why are you arguing specifics of bow sizes? My information is slightly different than yours, and was probably gathered in a different fashion. I do medevial re-enactment, which is where most of my info comes from.
I never said that the ships/boats weren't seaworthy, just that they wouldn't need to be designed for long travel at sea. I never stated I knew specifically what kind of ship/boat they used, because the story I read never stated that I can remember. I don't specialize in asian history, so I can't say specifically what is correct and what isn't, I just pointed out that in my opinion from the information I had and a few educated gueses based on european what I knew about european history and engineering in general, it would be possible for the event in question to happen. I also stated it was not very probable, but that does not discount the chance.
I know sometimes it is made to sound like he sunk a dozen warships with his bow alone, but when I looked into it the general consensus was that he sunk one boat/ship. This was all I was pointing out, and I tried to back that opinion up with a little information I had, there is really no need for this to go on much longer. I have reached the extent of the specifics (or generalized specifics) I know, and don't really feel strongly enough about this to do any real in depth research. My info comes from people who spend about 40% of their time engrossed in medevial reenactment and shooting bows in general, and they tend to know their stuff. I am not saying either you or they are wrong, but I can't help but put my faith in the guys who are 50+ years old and have been shooting and learning about archery history for 30 years or so.
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Your getting on my nerves, leave before I injure your inner child with my fist.


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Old 09-26-2008, 03:22 PM
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Default Re: Legend debunking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Svage View Post
There is really no need for this to go on much longer.
Right. Let's just agree to disagree then. I didn't mean to make any harsh remarks. I'm just bored and wanted to debate. Which brings me to the next point... What's the next legend to talk about?
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Old 09-26-2008, 06:05 PM
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Default Re: Legend debunking

Works for me. A friendly dispute. I appologise if I was harsh in any way, I guess i get ruffled when I think I have made a diplomatic end to a convo and it keeps going. Now, What ese can we argue about?
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-Warning-
I am out of prozac and patience, and I have a .357

(translated to fit in with T:LAW)
Be wary, I am lacking both in mood and patience, and my blade is both fast and sharp.

(edited to fit for Yama)
Your getting on my nerves, leave before I injure your inner child with my fist.


Short stories by ME
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